The events of the last few days have got me thinking about a few issues. I know that some people will jump on this and have a go, and that’s fine, but I am genuinely interested in discussion about this issue. Having had a life threatening pregnancy and delivery, I obviously do not believe in the power of the human body in all cases. I also believe in the power of the human mind to come up with technology that saves people. So, that said, I ask this in all seriousness:
Is a person that refuses prenatal care and has an unassisted homebirth negligent? I am not talking about people who have homebirths with a midwife, and not talking about those who have a homebirth with some degree of prenatal care. I am talking about the person who firmly believes that ANY medicalisation of childbirth is horrible, and that they can avoid complications by eating right, sleeping and talking to their baby.
Obviously this is not the case, with 5-8% of women developing preeclampsia (most prevalent in first time pregnancies and the leading cause of maternal death and premature babies), another 2-5% gestational diabetes, 10-15% anaemia, as well as the gamete of other potential complications (such as being RH -ve and requiring anti-D) that can risk the life of the baby. Avoiding prenatal care means that these conditions will not be picked up on by routine screening.
In WA (and I assume other states as well), denying a child medical care does constitute child maltreatment and the child can be apprehended. The parent can also be charged.
I put this as a valid question about the rights of the individual woman to make choices about the kind of birth she would like, but also the state’s obligation to protect the interests of the child. What if a child is born seriously ill or dies as a result of a mother’s conscious lack of prenatal care?
A woman would be charged with aborting a foetus after 23 weeks without a compelling medical case – so why does someone who risks the life of themselves and their baby any different? Especially a first time mother, who, for all intents and purposes, has no idea whether she will have complications or not.
Of course, it is not to say that all pregnancies will go wrong, but by the same token, medical intervention has saved the lives of millions of mothers and babies (myself and my children included). We also cannot compel citizens to undergo medical procedures – and being a feminist I firmly believe that a woman’s body is her own. But at what point do the rights of the child come into play?
Anyway, just some food for thought. Please keep it nice.
I’m right with you on that one Tea.
If you refuse any medical help and your child does die, then you should be charged with criminal negligence at the minimum, manslaughter preferred. The same would happen if you had a pool and your small child let itself out, through a broken gate and drowned. I don’t see how refusing prenatal care is any different.
Couldn’t agree more Tea.
The thing that I really can’t comprehend is that some people insist on a home birth, despite already knowing that things have a very high chance of going wrong. It seems to be that the childs welfare doesn’t even enter the equation, it is all about how it makes the woman feel. Getting behind the wheel of a car drunk is a crime, as you are putting other lives at risks…well isn’t that the same?
So I guess it naturally follows that if a mother chooses prenatal care and her ob is negligent and consequently the child dies she should also be charged with manslaughter for making such a dumb choice?
I’m right with you on that one Tea.If you refuse any medical help and your child does die, then you should be charged with criminal negligence at the minimum, manslaughter preferred. The same would happen if you had a pool and your small child let itself out, through a broken gate and drowned. I don’t see how refusing prenatal care is any different.
Couldn’t agree more Tea.The thing that I really can’t comprehend is that some people insist on a home birth, despite already knowing that things have a very high chance of going wrong. It seems to be that the childs welfare doesn’t even enter the equation, it is all about how it makes the woman feel. Getting behind the wheel of a car drunk is a crime, as you are putting other lives at risks…well isn’t that the same?
In all seriousness, no I don’t think they are negligent if they choose to have an unassisted birth and don’t get prenatal care through a health provider.
I’ve had a homebirth with a midwife, and I had no tests during my prenatals other than the inital blood test which was for my midwife’s security of mind (STDs and blood disease screening test). Our prenatal appointments were mostly discussing pregnancy and birth issues. The rest was discussions on nutrition, lifestyle and posture.
Does that make me negligent for not having any testing or ultrasounds during my pregnancy? Does that make my midwife negligent? I don’t really think so. She was very supportive of my decision to forego prenatal screens and ultrasounds.
She moved to another town before I had my second child. She was very supportive of my decision to have an unassisted childbirth, along with two other midwives and even an OB. It was unassisted homebirth, or hospital. Those were my choices at the time.
I chose homebirth.
I think it is negligent of mothers to put all responsibility for their prenatal care and births into someone elses hands. Every woman should be aware of her body and her baby, and know when to seek help etc. Every woman definitely SHOULD be prepared to birth her baby without medical attendants present… because birth waits for no man (or woman.)
This was the case for my second baby. Even if I had a midwife coming as soon as I knew I was definitely in labour, she would not have made it. I gave birth within 15 minutes of realising labour had kicked in.
Because I had already decided to UC, I didn’t panic. I was confident, prepared and had what I need on hand. My husband knew what to do in case of emergency or in event of me passing out or bleeding profusely. The numbers for the hospital and emergency department were on the fridge. We had homeopathics suggested by our naturopath and approved by several midwives for controlling bleeding and assisting in placental problems on hand as well.
Much safer and less disruptive for me/baby than trying to transport to hospital and having the baby en-route in traffic, in the back of an ambulance or car seat!!!!!!!!!
So does that make me negligent? I don’t think so. As a mother my interest in homebirth and now, having discovered unassisted birth, is not purely for selfish reasons ie me me me! I want this I want that. It is for my baby as well, and I have their interests foremost in heart. If necessary I would do whatever it took to save their lives, and that includes using the technology that we are lucky to have today.
So I guess it naturally follows that if a mother chooses prenatal care and her ob is negligent and consequently the child dies she should also be charged with manslaughter for making such a dumb choice?
In all seriousness, no I don’t think they are negligent if they choose to have an unassisted birth and don’t get prenatal care through a health provider.I’ve had a homebirth with a midwife, and I had no tests during my prenatals other than the inital blood test which was for my midwife’s security of mind (STDs and blood disease screening test). Our prenatal appointments were mostly discussing pregnancy and birth issues. The rest was discussions on nutrition, lifestyle and posture.Does that make me negligent for not having any testing or ultrasounds during my pregnancy? Does that make my midwife negligent? I don’t really think so. She was very supportive of my decision to forego prenatal screens and ultrasounds.She moved to another town before I had my second child. She was very supportive of my decision to have an unassisted childbirth, along with two other midwives and even an OB. It was unassisted homebirth, or hospital. Those were my choices at the time.I chose homebirth.I think it is negligent of mothers to put all responsibility for their prenatal care and births into someone elses hands. Every woman should be aware of her body and her baby, and know when to seek help etc. Every woman definitely SHOULD be prepared to birth her baby without medical attendants present… because birth waits for no man (or woman.)This was the case for my second baby. Even if I had a midwife coming as soon as I knew I was definitely in labour, she would not have made it. I gave birth within 15 minutes of realising labour had kicked in.Because I had already decided to UC, I didn’t panic. I was confident, prepared and had what I need on hand. My husband knew what to do in case of emergency or in event of me passing out or bleeding profusely. The numbers for the hospital and emergency department were on the fridge. We had homeopathics suggested by our naturopath and approved by several midwives for controlling bleeding and assisting in placental problems on hand as well.Much safer and less disruptive for me/baby than trying to transport to hospital and having the baby en-route in traffic, in the back of an ambulance or car seat!!!!!!!!!So does that make me negligent? I don’t think so. As a mother my interest in homebirth and now, having discovered unassisted birth, is not purely for selfish reasons ie me me me! I want this I want that. It is for my baby as well, and I have their interests foremost in heart. If necessary I would do whatever it took to save their lives, and that includes using the technology that we are lucky to have today.
no reply yet? I guess there’s no arguing with common sense.
no reply yet? I guess there’s no arguing with common sense.
Or they just can’t be bothered with the likes of scrags like you Cara. Perhaps that could be it?
Or they just can’t be bothered with the likes of scrags like you Cara. Perhaps that could be it?
I would have thought that any woman who wilfully refuses medical intervention be charged with negligent stupidity.
In this day and age, there is no excuse for declining any medical efforts in case of emergency during birth. Lord knows, if it weren’t for caesarians I’d probably still be in labour. Giving birth is not an exact science, and people are not mechanical. Things can and do go wrong, and anyone who disregards that needs a smack upside of the head.
(Tea, I came over from TSSH. Cool blog :p)
Re the earlier stoush on the thread about internet supermums, I’m also there with the teev. If it weren’t for ABC kids no doubt Magilla would be toast by now. I worry about spending too much time on the intermanet, but she also gets plenty of me so it tends to work out.
I like to think of myself as an attachment parenter, but I’ve been on some of the mailing lists for AP, and participated in a couple of forums, there are too many zealots out there. Jsut let me raise my child without preaching at me. They don’t come with instructions, so nobody has the right to get up you at how you raise your child unless you are causing major harm to them.
So there.
I would have thought that any woman who wilfully refuses medical intervention be charged with negligent stupidity.In this day and age, there is no excuse for declining any medical efforts in case of emergency during birth. Lord knows, if it weren’t for caesarians I’d probably still be in labour. Giving birth is not an exact science, and people are not mechanical. Things can and do go wrong, and anyone who disregards that needs a smack upside of the head.(Tea, I came over from TSSH. Cool blog :p)Re the earlier stoush on the thread about internet supermums, I’m also there with the teev. If it weren’t for ABC kids no doubt Magilla would be toast by now. I worry about spending too much time on the intermanet, but she also gets plenty of me so it tends to work out.I like to think of myself as an attachment parenter, but I’ve been on some of the mailing lists for AP, and participated in a couple of forums, there are too many zealots out there. Jsut let me raise my child without preaching at me. They don’t come with instructions, so nobody has the right to get up you at how you raise your child unless you are causing major harm to them.So there.
Hi everyone
I am sorry but I didn’t know you’d all posted! I have been busy with work stuff and haven’t checked to see whether comments got caught up in the spam filters… so I have only just approved them. They weren’t deleted! :)
Chris, first off, thank you so much for your post. I am genuinely interested in having a discussion, and, unlike Meat Head, who obviously cannot help but enflame (and thus is not worthy of a response)…I am grateful that you took the time to tell us about your experience.
The fact that you had a midwife present for your first labour does show that you have your best interests (and your baby’s) at heart. A midwife is well equipped to deal with emergency situations and take note of any potential for emergency, and that was my primary concern — someone who does not even have that. Like I said, homebirths are certainly not the issue — heck I would have LOVED the option. And with low risk pregnancies, I would never say that refusing ultrasounds are dangrous or negligent — after all, it is about how you would respond to the results that matter. I see it as the same as declining amnios — if you would not act on the results, then why?
Was your blood pressure ever monitored? I get that is an issue that is close to my heart as preeclampsia can keep itself well hidden until its too late… did you have BP and urine checks at all? Just curious.
I believe that you actually were responsible. I was thinking of one particular woman’s story when I wrote this — someone who had had a previously dangerous homebirth and insisted on going for a third time even though her and her baby’s life was at risk.
I really think it might be a question on intent. My worry is that not everybody is as responsible or as capable of assessing the situation as you may be, or a midwife, or otherwse (and yes, granted, some Drs are even very bad at it – I had an Ob who laughed at me when I said something was wrong and I turned out to be right!)
And, it was your second baby which was UC – and, having had a successful homebirth previously the risks for complications are certainly lower. I am concerned about first time mothers who have never had labour doing it.
I guess my question was about ignoring all reasonable medical advice – and this culture of “natural” being the *only* way implicitly encouraging women to make poor decisions.
Hi Nilknarf :)
Welcome to the site.
One thing I do find interesting is how people assume that, because we don’t label ourselves as AP, or may have had traumatic births/breastfeeding experiences, that somehow we are detached, or less in love with our babies.
I am very interested in the semiotics behind parenting – the use of the words “attachment” and “natural” having specific requirements. Isn’t all parenting natural? Isn’t it purely instinctive? As long as you do what you feel is right for you and your b aby, and they are happy, doesn’t that make you attached?
I share many philosophies with AP and NP. What I resent is being trolled for merely seeing things slightly differently.
I was surprised that people descended on here, to be honest… because I thought my point was pretty clear: don’t claim that you are a better parent when you spend just as much time on the computer as I do.
Somehow it became a war… Meh… :)
Anyway, I love TSSH :) As they would say… BLESS XOX
:)
heh. TSSH keeps me sane and in stitches.
But back to the subject matter….
Chris, I didn’t read your post before I put my 2 bob’s worth in. I agree with tealou – it’s the women who wilfully disregard any possibility of complication who are negligent. Not those who are educated about what may or may not happen.
I wanted a natural birth, and considered a homebirth. As it was, the hospital around the corner (7 min drive lol) has a family birth centre and is considered very baby-friendly. I had an uneventful pregnancy, and while I was more than ready to have the child, she wasn’t coming out. After 22 hours, and 2 shots of morphine (the 1st after 13 hours) I went in for a caesar. If I’d been home without a midwife or any other medical assistance, I doubt the outcome would have been as happy.
*snicker* As it is, she was a huge boofer of a baby at 9lbs12 so I’m glad I had the c.
RE attachment parenting and the labels that go with that. I am so far from how I perceived an Ap to be that I’ve given up saying that’s what I do. Parenting is a natural thing, but there are so many pressures on the family unit these days, and there has been such a breakdown in the community-at-large that a lot of the old support networks have been damaged. I have my own tight little network, but I’m slowly expanding it.
The online forums I find to be a waste of time unless you think like most of the regulars. I’m too much of a rightwinger and way too politically incorrect for a lot of them. I’ve been known to kill threads on vaccination purely because I disagree with homeopathic vaccines, and think that every child has the right to be vaccinated. :) I wasn’t quite as diplomatic at the time.
Now, I just get on with the job, have worded friends and family not to cross me at all. By all means disagree if you wish, but get out of my way. It’s a lot easier that way. No stress from anyone any more.
As for the trolls? They need to get a life of their own and get over themselves. It’s a big world.
Hi everyoneI am sorry but I didn’t know you’d all posted! I have been busy with work stuff and haven’t checked to see whether comments got caught up in the spam filters… so I have only just approved them. They weren’t deleted! :)Chris, first off, thank you so much for your post. I am genuinely interested in having a discussion, and, unlike Meat Head, who obviously cannot help but enflame (and thus is not worthy of a response)…I am grateful that you took the time to tell us about your experience.The fact that you had a midwife present for your first labour does show that you have your best interests (and your baby’s) at heart. A midwife is well equipped to deal with emergency situations and take note of any potential for emergency, and that was my primary concern — someone who does not even have that. Like I said, homebirths are certainly not the issue — heck I would have LOVED the option. And with low risk pregnancies, I would never say that refusing ultrasounds are dangrous or negligent — after all, it is about how you would respond to the results that matter. I see it as the same as declining amnios — if you would not act on the results, then why?Was your blood pressure ever monitored? I get that is an issue that is close to my heart as preeclampsia can keep itself well hidden until its too late… did you have BP and urine checks at all? Just curious.I believe that you actually were responsible. I was thinking of one particular woman’s story when I wrote this — someone who had had a previously dangerous homebirth and insisted on going for a third time even though her and her baby’s life was at risk.I really think it might be a question on intent. My worry is that not everybody is as responsible or as capable of assessing the situation as you may be, or a midwife, or otherwse (and yes, granted, some Drs are even very bad at it – I had an Ob who laughed at me when I said something was wrong and I turned out to be right!)And, it was your second baby which was UC – and, having had a successful homebirth previously the risks for complications are certainly lower. I am concerned about first time mothers who have never had labour doing it.I guess my question was about ignoring all reasonable medical advice – and this culture of “natural” being the *only* way implicitly encouraging women to make poor decisions.
Hi Nilknarf :)Welcome to the site.One thing I do find interesting is how people assume that, because we don’t label ourselves as AP, or may have had traumatic births/breastfeeding experiences, that somehow we are detached, or less in love with our babies.I am very interested in the semiotics behind parenting – the use of the words “attachment” and “natural” having specific requirements. Isn’t all parenting natural? Isn’t it purely instinctive? As long as you do what you feel is right for you and your b aby, and they are happy, doesn’t that make you attached?I share many philosophies with AP and NP. What I resent is being trolled for merely seeing things slightly differently.I was surprised that people descended on here, to be honest… because I thought my point was pretty clear: don’t claim that you are a better parent when you spend just as much time on the computer as I do.Somehow it became a war… Meh… :)Anyway, I love TSSH :) As they would say… BLESS XOX:)
heh. TSSH keeps me sane and in stitches.But back to the subject matter….Chris, I didn’t read your post before I put my 2 bob’s worth in. I agree with tealou – it’s the women who wilfully disregard any possibility of complication who are negligent. Not those who are educated about what may or may not happen.I wanted a natural birth, and considered a homebirth. As it was, the hospital around the corner (7 min drive lol) has a family birth centre and is considered very baby-friendly. I had an uneventful pregnancy, and while I was more than ready to have the child, she wasn’t coming out. After 22 hours, and 2 shots of morphine (the 1st after 13 hours) I went in for a caesar. If I’d been home without a midwife or any other medical assistance, I doubt the outcome would have been as happy.*snicker* As it is, she was a huge boofer of a baby at 9lbs12 so I’m glad I had the c.RE attachment parenting and the labels that go with that. I am so far from how I perceived an Ap to be that I’ve given up saying that’s what I do. Parenting is a natural thing, but there are so many pressures on the family unit these days, and there has been such a breakdown in the community-at-large that a lot of the old support networks have been damaged. I have my own tight little network, but I’m slowly expanding it.The online forums I find to be a waste of time unless you think like most of the regulars. I’m too much of a rightwinger and way too politically incorrect for a lot of them. I’ve been known to kill threads on vaccination purely because I disagree with homeopathic vaccines, and think that every child has the right to be vaccinated. :) I wasn’t quite as diplomatic at the time.Now, I just get on with the job, have worded friends and family not to cross me at all. By all means disagree if you wish, but get out of my way. It’s a lot easier that way. No stress from anyone any more.As for the trolls? They need to get a life of their own and get over themselves. It’s a big world.
Yes, all those mainstream parents who choose to go for controlled crying are definitely listening to their instincts. I do know that not all mainstream parents ignore their crying babes, but it is definitely a common thing. What instinct do we have that tells us not to answer a crying child?
A lot of you people seem to misunderstand all of us ‘ferals’. Where has ANYONE said that natural is the *only* way? Where has anyone said that modern medicine has no place at all in childbirth? Stop reading what you want to read and read what is actually said.
Ooh, so sorry if this post is long winded : ) I just visited here again and noticed I had comments directed at me so I’ve tried to answer them.
Hi Tealou,
No, my blood pressure wasn’t ever monitored. Actually come to think of it, my midwife didn’t really inform me very much on pregnancy complications. I only researched what was relevent to me as it happened (eg. heartburn, round ligament pains etc). It was not until my UP/UC that I looked into pregnancy and birth complications throughouly. A lot of UC’ers are a fan of high protein diets and healthy eating / exercise in preventing pre-eclampsia and I found out quite a bit from them that helped me to find a focus for my researching.
I like UP/UC because it totally put me in charge of my own health and when I accepted this responsibility I knew it was up to me to do what was needed. But the thing is, when birth came about, ALL of what I had learned totally went out the window. It was pure instinct, to birth unhindered like that, and to take care of my baby after the birth (unwrap cord, breathing, mucus, all that crap). Conscious capability has nothing to do with it, nor does anything you could possibly learn/educate yourself about birth.
I don’t think I agree with your statement that having a successful homebirth previously, the risks for complications are lower to UC. My UC baby had the cord around his neck 3 times and his body – classified as a complication by birth providers where the mother has to stop pushing so the cord can be unwrapped.
Me? Instinct again. No interfering or fiddling with the cord. Yup you heard it. No unwrapping! The baby was birthed with his head close to me,his body came out and “somersaulted” over. This kept him close to my body, and once he was all out, I just unwrapped the cord from his neck and body.
Another “complication”. The placenta took til the next morning to come out. I decided not to take homeopathics and just wait. If in hospital I would be shot (and quartered :P ) to get it out, despite the fact I was not displaying any signs of hidden bleeding or visible signs of haemorrhage.
Hi Niknarf,
If you had been at home, without medical assistance you would have only yourself to rely on. If there was something wrong or setting off your intuition I am sure you would have gone to hospital – like many other UCers would (and do). Drs and midwifes rely on knowledge about how they “think” birth is supposed to go, and knowledge of what problems look like when they start to occur. Women *KNOW* when something is not right – and before a dr or mw. Women are the first in line – it is their bodies after all!
My babies were 9 and 10 (nearly 11) pounds respectively. I’m glad I had them at home, it was so much more manageable to do it at home privately. Hospitals are no fun to be in when sick or when you need to labour in an environment that you can easily have sex in unhibited : ) Same principal I reckon. If you don’t feel you could have sex unhibited in said environment, it is less than ideal for labouring/birthing in.
UC is a totally different paradigm than what society perceives birth as today. Birth is NOT inherently dangerous, complicated or risky. A first time mother can do it if it is her choosing and way. Likewise, a 5x UCer can transport to hospy only to give birth in the carpark or end in csection. Hell, the only thing that stopped me UC’ing my first was that I thought it would be illegal and that I would get yelled at *LOL*
Guys, maybe you have in mind people that decline health care that actually *NEED* it regardless of if they are UC’ers or not? I have yet to meet an irresponsible UC’er because UC is about claiming complete responsibility for all of it, so that mum and bub are both safe, healthy and THRILLED with their experience.
On the other hand I have met too many mothers under the care of mws, gps and obs that just shrug and say “But my doctor said” – taking an experts word as gospel, without actually finding out any real information for themselves, to protect themselves and their babies.
Keep those blogs coming : )
Ooh, so sorry if this post is long winded : ) I just visited here again and noticed I had comments directed at me so I’ve tried to answer them.
Hi Tealou,
No, my blood pressure wasn’t ever monitored. Actually come to think of it, my midwife didn’t really inform me very much on pregnancy complications. I only researched what was relevent to me as it happened (eg. heartburn, round ligament pains etc). It was not until my UP/UC that I looked into pregnancy and birth complications throughouly. A lot of UC’ers are a fan of high protein diets and healthy eating / exercise in preventing pre-eclampsia and I found out quite a bit from them that helped me to find a focus for my researching.
I like UP/UC because it totally put me in charge of my own health and when I accepted this responsibility I knew it was up to me to do what was needed. But the thing is, when birth came about, ALL of what I had learned totally went out the window. It was pure instinct, to birth unhindered like that, and to take care of my baby after the birth (unwrap cord, breathing, mucus, all that crap). Conscious capability has nothing to do with it, nor does anything you could possibly learn/educate yourself about birth.
I don’t think I agree with your statement that having a successful homebirth previously, the risks for complications are lower to UC. My UC baby had the cord around his neck 3 times and his body – classified as a complication by birth providers where the mother has to stop pushing so the cord can be unwrapped.
Me? Instinct again. No interfering or fiddling with the cord. Yup you heard it. No unwrapping! The baby was birthed with his head close to me,his body came out and “somersaulted” over. This kept him close to my body, and once he was all out, I just unwrapped the cord from his neck and body.
Another “complication”. The placenta took til the next morning to come out. I decided not to take homeopathics and just wait. If in hospital I would be shot (and quartered :P ) to get it out, despite the fact I was not displaying any signs of hidden bleeding or visible signs of haemorrhage.
Hi Niknarf,
If you had been at home, without medical assistance you would have only yourself to rely on. If there was something wrong or setting off your intuition I am sure you would have gone to hospital – like many other UCers would (and do). Drs and midwifes rely on knowledge about how they “think” birth is supposed to go, and knowledge of what problems look like when they start to occur. Women *KNOW* when something is not right – and before a dr or mw. Women are the first in line – it is their bodies after all!
My babies were 9 and 10 (nearly 11) pounds respectively. I’m glad I had them at home, it was so much more manageable to do it at home privately. Hospitals are no fun to be in when sick or when you need to labour in an environment that you can easily have sex in unhibited : ) Same principal I reckon. If you don’t feel you could have sex unhibited in said environment, it is less than ideal for labouring/birthing in.
UC is a totally different paradigm than what society perceives birth as today. Birth is NOT inherently dangerous, complicated or risky. A first time mother can do it if it is her choosing and way. Likewise, a 5x UCer can transport to hospy only to give birth in the carpark or end in csection. Hell, the only thing that stopped me UC’ing my first was that I thought it would be illegal and that I would get yelled at *LOL*
Guys, maybe you have in mind people that decline health care that actually *NEED* it regardless of if they are UC’ers or not? I have yet to meet an irresponsible UC’er because UC is about claiming complete responsibility for all of it, so that mum and bub are both safe, healthy and THRILLED with their experience.
On the other hand I have met too many mothers under the care of mws, gps and obs that just shrug and say “But my doctor said” – taking an experts word as gospel, without actually finding out any real information for themselves, to protect themselves and their babies.
Keep them blogs coming : )
I wonder why the double post. Maybe I clicked the button twice LOL feel free to delete.
hey ‘whatever’ – too cowardly to name yourself? that’s a bit sad. it’s just the internet, after all. Scrag is a bit of a weak call anyway. Couldn’t even stretch it to, oh i dunno, ‘dumb slut’, ‘dirty ho’, ‘skanky bitch’? Go on, at least be entertaining.
Chris, I really get what you are saying about intuition. I think all women should trust what their bodies are telling them, but at the same time I sort of find it sad that someone has to take themselves away from a medical environment to get it. That’s not a dig at you btw; it’s just a reflection on how people tend to default bureaucratically to the advice of others.
But pregnancy checkups are important. I don’t mean ultrasounds (although one is at least a good idea, to detect any abnormalities that may be seen to straight after birth and prevent death), amnios or even the GD test or GBS test (i had neither of those myself). But where is the harm in a quick check of your blood pressure and a wee in a cup? how would you know if you had obstretic colostasis and not just heat rash? If you don’t have a designated care provider, you are effectively walking off the street if you feel something isn’t right, and making it that much harder to diagnose a problem.
You also say that you are a fan of a high protein, healthy diet to prevent pre-eclampsia or PIH. A healthy diet is always a great thing in pregnancy, however ‘prevention’ of pre-eclampsia is highly experimental. in fact, the latest round of research suggests vitamin C rather than protein is the real answer. So how, when a woman often doesn’t even know she has it unless her blood pressure and/or urine sample are taken, would you be confident you are doing the best for your baby?
So… yeah. I do think it is irresponsible when a quick checkup could save the life of the baby.
Yes, all those mainstream parents who choose to go for controlled crying are definitely listening to their instincts. I do know that not all mainstream parents ignore their crying babes, but it is definitely a common thing. What instinct do we have that tells us not to answer a crying child?A lot of you people seem to misunderstand all of us ‘ferals’. Where has ANYONE said that natural is the *only* way? Where has anyone said that modern medicine has no place at all in childbirth? Stop reading what you want to read and read what is actually said.
Ooh, so sorry if this post is long winded : ) I just visited here again and noticed I had comments directed at me so I’ve tried to answer them.Hi Tealou,No, my blood pressure wasn’t ever monitored. Actually come to think of it, my midwife didn’t really inform me very much on pregnancy complications. I only researched what was relevent to me as it happened (eg. heartburn, round ligament pains etc). It was not until my UP/UC that I looked into pregnancy and birth complications throughouly. A lot of UC’ers are a fan of high protein diets and healthy eating / exercise in preventing pre-eclampsia and I found out quite a bit from them that helped me to find a focus for my researching.I like UP/UC because it totally put me in charge of my own health and when I accepted this responsibility I knew it was up to me to do what was needed. But the thing is, when birth came about, ALL of what I had learned totally went out the window. It was pure instinct, to birth unhindered like that, and to take care of my baby after the birth (unwrap cord, breathing, mucus, all that crap). Conscious capability has nothing to do with it, nor does anything you could possibly learn/educate yourself about birth.I don’t think I agree with your statement that having a successful homebirth previously, the risks for complications are lower to UC. My UC baby had the cord around his neck 3 times and his body – classified as a complication by birth providers where the mother has to stop pushing so the cord can be unwrapped.Me? Instinct again. No interfering or fiddling with the cord. Yup you heard it. No unwrapping! The baby was birthed with his head close to me,his body came out and “somersaulted” over. This kept him close to my body, and once he was all out, I just unwrapped the cord from his neck and body.Another “complication”. The placenta took til the next morning to come out. I decided not to take homeopathics and just wait. If in hospital I would be shot (and quartered :P ) to get it out, despite the fact I was not displaying any signs of hidden bleeding or visible signs of haemorrhage.Hi Niknarf,If you had been at home, without medical assistance you would have only yourself to rely on. If there was something wrong or setting off your intuition I am sure you would have gone to hospital – like many other UCers would (and do). Drs and midwifes rely on knowledge about how they “think” birth is supposed to go, and knowledge of what problems look like when they start to occur. Women *KNOW* when something is not right – and before a dr or mw. Women are the first in line – it is their bodies after all!My babies were 9 and 10 (nearly 11) pounds respectively. I’m glad I had them at home, it was so much more manageable to do it at home privately. Hospitals are no fun to be in when sick or when you need to labour in an environment that you can easily have sex in unhibited : ) Same principal I reckon. If you don’t feel you could have sex unhibited in said environment, it is less than ideal for labouring/birthing in.UC is a totally different paradigm than what society perceives birth as today. Birth is NOT inherently dangerous, complicated or risky. A first time mother can do it if it is her choosing and way. Likewise, a 5x UCer can transport to hospy only to give birth in the carpark or end in csection. Hell, the only thing that stopped me UC’ing my first was that I thought it would be illegal and that I would get yelled at *LOL*Guys, maybe you have in mind people that decline health care that actually *NEED* it regardless of if they are UC’ers or not? I have yet to meet an irresponsible UC’er because UC is about claiming complete responsibility for all of it, so that mum and bub are both safe, healthy and THRILLED with their experience.On the other hand I have met too many mothers under the care of mws, gps and obs that just shrug and say “But my doctor said” – taking an experts word as gospel, without actually finding out any real information for themselves, to protect themselves and their babies.Keep those blogs coming : )
Ooh, so sorry if this post is long winded : ) I just visited here again and noticed I had comments directed at me so I’ve tried to answer them.Hi Tealou,No, my blood pressure wasn’t ever monitored. Actually come to think of it, my midwife didn’t really inform me very much on pregnancy complications. I only researched what was relevent to me as it happened (eg. heartburn, round ligament pains etc). It was not until my UP/UC that I looked into pregnancy and birth complications throughouly. A lot of UC’ers are a fan of high protein diets and healthy eating / exercise in preventing pre-eclampsia and I found out quite a bit from them that helped me to find a focus for my researching.I like UP/UC because it totally put me in charge of my own health and when I accepted this responsibility I knew it was up to me to do what was needed. But the thing is, when birth came about, ALL of what I had learned totally went out the window. It was pure instinct, to birth unhindered like that, and to take care of my baby after the birth (unwrap cord, breathing, mucus, all that crap). Conscious capability has nothing to do with it, nor does anything you could possibly learn/educate yourself about birth.I don’t think I agree with your statement that having a successful homebirth previously, the risks for complications are lower to UC. My UC baby had the cord around his neck 3 times and his body – classified as a complication by birth providers where the mother has to stop pushing so the cord can be unwrapped.Me? Instinct again. No interfering or fiddling with the cord. Yup you heard it. No unwrapping! The baby was birthed with his head close to me,his body came out and “somersaulted” over. This kept him close to my body, and once he was all out, I just unwrapped the cord from his neck and body.Another “complication”. The placenta took til the next morning to come out. I decided not to take homeopathics and just wait. If in hospital I would be shot (and quartered :P ) to get it out, despite the fact I was not displaying any signs of hidden bleeding or visible signs of haemorrhage.Hi Niknarf,If you had been at home, without medical assistance you would have only yourself to rely on. If there was something wrong or setting off your intuition I am sure you would have gone to hospital – like many other UCers would (and do). Drs and midwifes rely on knowledge about how they “think” birth is supposed to go, and knowledge of what problems look like when they start to occur. Women *KNOW* when something is not right – and before a dr or mw. Women are the first in line – it is their bodies after all!My babies were 9 and 10 (nearly 11) pounds respectively. I’m glad I had them at home, it was so much more manageable to do it at home privately. Hospitals are no fun to be in when sick or when you need to labour in an environment that you can easily have sex in unhibited : ) Same principal I reckon. If you don’t feel you could have sex unhibited in said environment, it is less than ideal for labouring/birthing in.UC is a totally different paradigm than what society perceives birth as today. Birth is NOT inherently dangerous, complicated or risky. A first time mother can do it if it is her choosing and way. Likewise, a 5x UCer can transport to hospy only to give birth in the carpark or end in csection. Hell, the only thing that stopped me UC’ing my first was that I thought it would be illegal and that I would get yelled at *LOL*Guys, maybe you have in mind people that decline health care that actually *NEED* it regardless of if they are UC’ers or not? I have yet to meet an irresponsible UC’er because UC is about claiming complete responsibility for all of it, so that mum and bub are both safe, healthy and THRILLED with their experience.On the other hand I have met too many mothers under the care of mws, gps and obs that just shrug and say “But my doctor said” – taking an experts word as gospel, without actually finding out any real information for themselves, to protect themselves and their babies.Keep them blogs coming : )
I wonder why the double post. Maybe I clicked the button twice LOL feel free to delete.
I said a lot of UCers are a fan of protien/diet Binky. I didn’t say *I* was. I believe good nutrition, exercise and being aware of your own body and when something is out of kilter is a good prevention for many things.
Also how we go about handling sickness, health, health care, etc is different. Each to their own. After experiencing conventional medicine, I have to say that I prefer the holistic viewpoint for healing and remaining well.
As for prenatal care, there have been many studies that show it does not improve the outcomes for mother or baby. Henci Goer, a medical researcher has a fair bit of info on this.
Prevention of pre-eclampsia is not experimental. There has been a lot of research into nutrition and preventing pre-eclampsia over the past 50 years – this is from one of my friends who had preeclampsia with her first baby and was able to do something about it herself rather than take the drugs she was told to take.
Mellanby, Edward: “Nutrition and childbearing.” Lancet 2:1131,1933.
LaRoss, R.A.: “Relation of vitamin deficiency to toxemias of pregnancy.” South.Med.J.28:120, 1935.
Strauss, M.B.: “Observations on etiology of toxemias of pregnancy.” Am.J.Med.Sci.190:811, 1935.
Tompkins, Winslow: “The significance of nutritional deficiency in pregnancy.” J.Internatl.Coll.Surg. 4:147, 1941.
Burke, Bertha, et al.: “Nutrition studies during pregnancy.” Amer.J.Obstet.Gynecol. 46:38, 1943.
Ebbs, John H., et al.: “The influence of improved nutrition upon the infant.” Canadian Med. Assoc. J.46:6, 1942.
Antonov, A.N.: “Children born during the siege of Leningrad.” J. Pediatrics 3O:250, 1947.
Ferguson, J.H.: “Maternal death in the rural South.” J.A.M.A. 146:l388, 1950.
Hamlin, R.H.J.: “The prevention of eclampsia and pre-eclampsia.” Lancet 1:64, 1952.
Robinson, Margaret: “Salt in pregnancy.” Lancet 1:178, 1958.
Brewer, T.H.: “Limitations of diuretic therapy in the management of severe toxemia: significance of hypoalbuminemia.” Amer.J.0b.Gyn. 83:1352, 1962.
Pike, Ruth: “Sodium intake during pregnancy.” J.Amer. Dietet. Assoc. 44:176, 1964.
Brewer, T.H.: Metabolic Toxemia of Late Pregnancy: A Disease of Malnutrition, Springfield, Thomas, 1966.
Brewer, T.H.:”Metabolic toxemia of late pregnancy: a disease entity.” Gynaecologia 167:1, 1969.
Eastman, N.J. & Jackson, E.:”Weight relationships in pregnancy.” Ob-Gyn.Survey 23:lOO3, 1968.
Brewer, T.H.: “Human pregnancy nutrition: an examination of traditional assumptions.” Aust. N.Z.J. Obstet. Gynaecol. 10:87, 1970.
Bletka, M. et al: “Volume of whole blood and absolute amount of serum proteins in the early states of late toxemias of pregnancy.” Amer. J. Obstet. Gynecol. l06:l0, 1970.
Platt, B.S. & Stewart, R.J.: “Reversible and irreversible effects of protein-calorie deficiency on the central nervous system of animals and man.” World Rev. Nutri. Dietet. 13:43, 1971.
Brewer, T.H.: “Human maternal-fetal nutrition.” Obstet. Gynecol. 40:868, 1972.
Chesley, Leon: “Plasma volume and red cell volume in pregnancy.” Amer.J.Obstet.Gynecol. 112:440, 1972.
Williams, Sue R.: Nutrition and Diet Therapy 2nd Edition, St. Louis, Mosby, 1973, Chap. 17.
Cloeren, Stella, et al.: “Hypovolemia in toxemia of pregnancy: plasma expander therapy.” Arch Gynak. 215:123, 1973.
Dobbing, John: “The later growth of the brain and its vulnerability.” Pediatrics 53:2, 1974.
Brewer, Tom: “Toxaemia – a disease of prejudice?” World Med. J. 21:70, 1974.
Brewer, Tom: “Iatrogenic starvation in human pregnancy.” Medikon 4:14, 1974. (Ghent)
Brewer, T.H.: “Consequences of malnutrition in, human pregnancy. Ciba Review: Perinatal Medicine, 1975, pp. 5,6. (Ciba-Geigy, Basel)
Higgins, Aqnes C.: “Nutritional status and the outcome of pregnancy.” J. Canadian Dietet. Assoc. 37:17, 1976.
Brewer, Tom: “Role of malnutrition in preeclampsia and eclampsia.” (Editor’s title to a letter) Amer.J. Obstet. Gynecol. l25:28l, 1976.
Brewer, T.H.: “Etiology of Eclampsia” Ibid. 127:448, 1977.
Brewer, T.H.: Metabolic Toxemia of Late Pregnancy, Not “PIH”, Keats Publishing, Inc., New Canaan. pp. 146-149.
hey ‘whatever’ – too cowardly to name yourself? that’s a bit sad. it’s just the internet, after all. Scrag is a bit of a weak call anyway. Couldn’t even stretch it to, oh i dunno, ‘dumb slut’, ‘dirty ho’, ‘skanky bitch’? Go on, at least be entertaining.Chris, I really get what you are saying about intuition. I think all women should trust what their bodies are telling them, but at the same time I sort of find it sad that someone has to take themselves away from a medical environment to get it. That’s not a dig at you btw; it’s just a reflection on how people tend to default bureaucratically to the advice of others.But pregnancy checkups are important. I don’t mean ultrasounds (although one is at least a good idea, to detect any abnormalities that may be seen to straight after birth and prevent death), amnios or even the GD test or GBS test (i had neither of those myself). But where is the harm in a quick check of your blood pressure and a wee in a cup? how would you know if you had obstretic colostasis and not just heat rash? If you don’t have a designated care provider, you are effectively walking off the street if you feel something isn’t right, and making it that much harder to diagnose a problem.You also say that you are a fan of a high protein, healthy diet to prevent pre-eclampsia or PIH. A healthy diet is always a great thing in pregnancy, however ‘prevention’ of pre-eclampsia is highly experimental. in fact, the latest round of research suggests vitamin C rather than protein is the real answer. So how, when a woman often doesn’t even know she has it unless her blood pressure and/or urine sample are taken, would you be confident you are doing the best for your baby?So… yeah. I do think it is irresponsible when a quick checkup could save the life of the baby.
Thanks Chris, its interesting.
However, you may notice that most of those references are from the 1960′s & 1970′s. Not that that automatically disqualifies your point of view, but there has been substantial research and developments since, and the Brewer diet in particular has been proven to have little effect.
Preeclampsia is NOT preventable.
I know you have linked to several studies, and thats fine, however I trust the opinions of the Preeclampsia Foundation http://www.preeclampsia.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3919
As I said in email, I am also an avid low carb/high protein diet follower and STILL got PE. As have many others.
http://preeclampsia.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9742&SearchTerms=,brewer
I guess when you have had a problem-free pregnancy it is easy to say that it was your lifestyle that prevented complications… but maybe it is just the luck of the draw, rather than any one causal relationship?
It is hard not to find it offensive when people say that PE is preventable… and it seems to come from people who don’t know what it is like to nearly die doing something that shold be easy and natural.
I know you have good intentions, and I respect your point of view — after all I am a major advocate of diet and exercise, as well as naturopathy and other things having a major impact on our health. But there are limits to this, and this is why medical intervention has, overall, decreased morbidity and mortality for childbirth by staggering amounts.
Again, that is not to say that what you are saying isnt true, however, I beleive there is an element of luck rather than any relationship between our lifestyle and our health.
Actually, obstetrical intervention in childbirth overall has caused an INCREASE in maternal and infant mortality and morbidity historically, through puerperal fever, overuse of surgical implements, lack of real knowledge about the process of normal birth, etc. Negative outcomes historically have also been related to archaic methods and beliefs surrounding childbirth and a lack of true understanding of the process; not the lack of obstetric care overall. It has been factors such as better nutrition (in turn decreasing illnesses which had a huge impact on a woman’s ability to give birth, such as rickets, a pelvic malformation caused largely by poor nutrition), improved hygiene, the slow reversal of obstetrically introduced prone childbirth positions and other poor practices, AND the factor of emergency obstetrical intervention being available WHEN REQUIRED that has improved outcomes overall. Even so, morbidity is actually at a very high level currently, and mortality in some countries with state of the art obstetric facilities is actually rising.
Medical care certainly has its place in genuine medical emergencies in childbirth. A UP/UCer appreciates this as much as any women giving birth in a Hospital.
I said a lot of UCers are a fan of protien/diet Binky. I didn’t say *I* was. I believe good nutrition, exercise and being aware of your own body and when something is out of kilter is a good prevention for many things.Also how we go about handling sickness, health, health care, etc is different. Each to their own. After experiencing conventional medicine, I have to say that I prefer the holistic viewpoint for healing and remaining well.As for prenatal care, there have been many studies that show it does not improve the outcomes for mother or baby. Henci Goer, a medical researcher has a fair bit of info on this.Prevention of pre-eclampsia is not experimental. There has been a lot of research into nutrition and preventing pre-eclampsia over the past 50 years – this is from one of my friends who had preeclampsia with her first baby and was able to do something about it herself rather than take the drugs she was told to take.Mellanby, Edward: “Nutrition and childbearing.” Lancet 2:1131,1933.LaRoss, R.A.: “Relation of vitamin deficiency to toxemias of pregnancy.” South.Med.J.28:120, 1935.Strauss, M.B.: “Observations on etiology of toxemias of pregnancy.” Am.J.Med.Sci.190:811, 1935.Tompkins, Winslow: “The significance of nutritional deficiency in pregnancy.” J.Internatl.Coll.Surg. 4:147, 1941.Burke, Bertha, et al.: “Nutrition studies during pregnancy.” Amer.J.Obstet.Gynecol. 46:38, 1943.Ebbs, John H., et al.: “The influence of improved nutrition upon the infant.” Canadian Med. Assoc. J.46:6, 1942.Antonov, A.N.: “Children born during the siege of Leningrad.” J. Pediatrics 3O:250, 1947.Ferguson, J.H.: “Maternal death in the rural South.” J.A.M.A. 146:l388, 1950.Hamlin, R.H.J.: “The prevention of eclampsia and pre-eclampsia.” Lancet 1:64, 1952.Robinson, Margaret: “Salt in pregnancy.” Lancet 1:178, 1958.Brewer, T.H.: “Limitations of diuretic therapy in the management of severe toxemia: significance of hypoalbuminemia.” Amer.J.0b.Gyn. 83:1352, 1962.Pike, Ruth: “Sodium intake during pregnancy.” J.Amer. Dietet. Assoc. 44:176, 1964.Brewer, T.H.: Metabolic Toxemia of Late Pregnancy: A Disease of Malnutrition, Springfield, Thomas, 1966.Brewer, T.H.:”Metabolic toxemia of late pregnancy: a disease entity.” Gynaecologia 167:1, 1969.Eastman, N.J. & Jackson, E.:”Weight relationships in pregnancy.” Ob-Gyn.Survey 23:lOO3, 1968.Brewer, T.H.: “Human pregnancy nutrition: an examination of traditional assumptions.” Aust. N.Z.J. Obstet. Gynaecol. 10:87, 1970.Bletka, M. et al: “Volume of whole blood and absolute amount of serum proteins in the early states of late toxemias of pregnancy.” Amer. J. Obstet. Gynecol. l06:l0, 1970.Platt, B.S. & Stewart, R.J.: “Reversible and irreversible effects of protein-calorie deficiency on the central nervous system of animals and man.” World Rev. Nutri. Dietet. 13:43, 1971.Brewer, T.H.: “Human maternal-fetal nutrition.” Obstet. Gynecol. 40:868, 1972.Chesley, Leon: “Plasma volume and red cell volume in pregnancy.” Amer.J.Obstet.Gynecol. 112:440, 1972.Williams, Sue R.: Nutrition and Diet Therapy 2nd Edition, St. Louis, Mosby, 1973, Chap. 17.Cloeren, Stella, et al.: “Hypovolemia in toxemia of pregnancy: plasma expander therapy.” Arch Gynak. 215:123, 1973.Dobbing, John: “The later growth of the brain and its vulnerability.” Pediatrics 53:2, 1974.Brewer, Tom: “Toxaemia – a disease of prejudice?” World Med. J. 21:70, 1974.Brewer, Tom: “Iatrogenic starvation in human pregnancy.” Medikon 4:14, 1974. (Ghent)Brewer, T.H.: “Consequences of malnutrition in, human pregnancy. Ciba Review: Perinatal Medicine, 1975, pp. 5,6. (Ciba-Geigy, Basel)Higgins, Aqnes C.: “Nutritional status and the outcome of pregnancy.” J. Canadian Dietet. Assoc. 37:17, 1976.Brewer, Tom: “Role of malnutrition in preeclampsia and eclampsia.” (Editor’s title to a letter) Amer.J. Obstet. Gynecol. l25:28l, 1976.Brewer, T.H.: “Etiology of Eclampsia” Ibid. 127:448, 1977.Brewer, T.H.: Metabolic Toxemia of Late Pregnancy, Not “PIH”, Keats Publishing, Inc., New Canaan. pp. 146-149.
Thanks Chris, its interesting.However, you may notice that most of those references are from the 1960′s & 1970′s. Not that that automatically disqualifies your point of view, but there has been substantial research and developments since, and the Brewer diet in particular has been proven to have little effect.Preeclampsia is NOT preventable.I know you have linked to several studies, and thats fine, however I trust the opinions of the Preeclampsia Foundation http://www.preeclampsia.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3919As I said in email, I am also an avid low carb/high protein diet follower and STILL got PE. As have many others.http://preeclampsia.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9742&SearchTerms=,brewerI guess when you have had a problem-free pregnancy it is easy to say that it was your lifestyle that prevented complications… but maybe it is just the luck of the draw, rather than any one causal relationship?It is hard not to find it offensive when people say that PE is preventable… and it seems to come from people who don’t know what it is like to nearly die doing something that shold be easy and natural.I know you have good intentions, and I respect your point of view — after all I am a major advocate of diet and exercise, as well as naturopathy and other things having a major impact on our health. But there are limits to this, and this is why medical intervention has, overall, decreased morbidity and mortality for childbirth by staggering amounts.Again, that is not to say that what you are saying isnt true, however, I beleive there is an element of luck rather than any relationship between our lifestyle and our health.
Actually, obstetrical intervention in childbirth overall has caused an INCREASE in maternal and infant mortality and morbidity historically, through puerperal fever, overuse of surgical implements, lack of real knowledge about the process of normal birth, etc. Negative outcomes historically have also been related to archaic methods and beliefs surrounding childbirth and a lack of true understanding of the process; not the lack of obstetric care overall. It has been factors such as better nutrition (in turn decreasing illnesses which had a huge impact on a woman’s ability to give birth, such as rickets, a pelvic malformation caused largely by poor nutrition), improved hygiene, the slow reversal of obstetrically introduced prone childbirth positions and other poor practices, AND the factor of emergency obstetrical intervention being available WHEN REQUIRED that has improved outcomes overall. Even so, morbidity is actually at a very high level currently, and mortality in some countries with state of the art obstetric facilities is actually rising.Medical care certainly has its place in genuine medical emergencies in childbirth. A UP/UCer appreciates this as much as any women giving birth in a Hospital.
Those links were to forum topics. Before sending on to my friend I’d like the actual research studies. She will be very interested in it as she’s been through a diagnosis of pre-eclampsia and been able to manage it herself. How old a research is does not bother me – because I have seen research done 30-50 years ago used by the WHO and other similar groups. I think the validity of a study should be based off how they went about doing it and not when they did it.
I don’t think that element of luck comes into our relationship between lifestyle and health, because illnesses and disease only occur in tissues and organisms that are not functioning at 100 %. A seemingly healthy person that gets sick is not really functioning at 100 percent health. Even a simple thing such as staying up too late and not getting enough sleep is enough to depress immune function to the point where you are suspectible to falling ill.
I don’t know anyone that is at 100 percent ALL the time, and when they do fall ill, if they understand the relationship between their lifestyle factors and their health, they can remedy the problem and support their immune system through handling the illness without further depressing it through the use of drugs to mask or relieve symptoms.
Sorry Chris, I do know that that is a forum link, and normally I would pay more atention and source information. Unfortunately I just cannot do it as I am WAY busy this week, and greater minds than mine are working here.
However, that is not just a forum link — it a link from the Preeclampsia foundation’s Expert Drs who focus on PE and its causes and are fully invested in PE research. I am not a fan of anecdotal evidence at all, but I would suggest that your friend check out the whole wensite.
Believe me, if I could prevent PE, I would.
And I agree with you on most of your points. As a perosn who has had many health problems, I have looked for answers in many places and believe what you are saying too!
However, in the case of autoimmune diseases (and some believe PE is an autoimmune response, which is the modern understanding of it and prevalent view right now), sometimes they are just inexplicable. We don’t know *why* it happens — and I am sure that there are thousands of Drs that wouldnt want to see a patient or baby die from this awful disease.
Rather than luck, maybe I should have said fate… :)
I will try and provide links to actual studies when I have time in comong weeks, however, the preeclampsia.org site is a great source of info and she could look there.
t
Those links were to forum topics. Before sending on to my friend I’d like the actual research studies. She will be very interested in it as she’s been through a diagnosis of pre-eclampsia and been able to manage it herself. How old a research is does not bother me – because I have seen research done 30-50 years ago used by the WHO and other similar groups. I think the validity of a study should be based off how they went about doing it and not when they did it.I don’t think that element of luck comes into our relationship between lifestyle and health, because illnesses and disease only occur in tissues and organisms that are not functioning at 100 %. A seemingly healthy person that gets sick is not really functioning at 100 percent health. Even a simple thing such as staying up too late and not getting enough sleep is enough to depress immune function to the point where you are suspectible to falling ill.I don’t know anyone that is at 100 percent ALL the time, and when they do fall ill, if they understand the relationship between their lifestyle factors and their health, they can remedy the problem and support their immune system through handling the illness without further depressing it through the use of drugs to mask or relieve symptoms.
Sorry Chris, I do know that that is a forum link, and normally I would pay more atention and source information. Unfortunately I just cannot do it as I am WAY busy this week, and greater minds than mine are working here.However, that is not just a forum link — it a link from the Preeclampsia foundation’s Expert Drs who focus on PE and its causes and are fully invested in PE research. I am not a fan of anecdotal evidence at all, but I would suggest that your friend check out the whole wensite.Believe me, if I could prevent PE, I would.And I agree with you on most of your points. As a perosn who has had many health problems, I have looked for answers in many places and believe what you are saying too!However, in the case of autoimmune diseases (and some believe PE is an autoimmune response, which is the modern understanding of it and prevalent view right now), sometimes they are just inexplicable. We don’t know *why* it happens — and I am sure that there are thousands of Drs that wouldnt want to see a patient or baby die from this awful disease.Rather than luck, maybe I should have said fate… :)I will try and provide links to actual studies when I have time in comong weeks, however, the preeclampsia.org site is a great source of info and she could look there.t
Wow, amazing stuff you got here! My mom was just looking for this kind of information. I hope you don’t mind me copying it for her? Anyways, thanks and good luck with your blog!
Wow, amazing stuff you got here! My mom was just looking for this kind of information. I hope you don’t mind me copying it for her? Anyways, thanks and good luck with your blog!
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I think it’s a good topic for debate, unfortunately both sides get so radical about things. I’ve done homebirth with CNM but wouldn’t feel comfortable with UC. To do a HB or UC, you really have to educate yourself which is more than I can say for MOST (not all) women who go to OBs. I’m often amazed at how little pregnant women who attend OB clinics know about pregnancy. I think they want to believe their OB is God. I decided which tests I wanted/needed to do. But I got flack from Drs because they thought their “recommendations” should be followed. If you disagree with an OB or Dr. they really overreact and start in with the ‘dead baby card’. I can only see the unassisted HB movement growing with the ridiculous rules and policies imposed upon women by hospitals, OBs and ultimately by lawyers. Luckily in my State/area, I was able to get a CNM, however if I’d been elsewhere I might have had to consider UC. That’s where Drs. are pushing women.
I think it’s a good topic for debate, unfortunately both sides get so radical about things. I’ve done homebirth with CNM but wouldn’t feel comfortable with UC. To do a HB or UC, you really have to educate yourself which is more than I can say for MOST (not all) women who go to OBs. I’m often amazed at how little pregnant women who attend OB clinics know about pregnancy. I think they want to believe their OB is God. I decided which tests I wanted/needed to do. But I got flack from Drs because they thought their “recommendations” should be followed. If you disagree with an OB or Dr. they really overreact and start in with the ‘dead baby card’. I can only see the unassisted HB movement growing with the ridiculous rules and policies imposed upon women by hospitals, OBs and ultimately by lawyers. Luckily in my State/area, I was able to get a CNM, however if I’d been elsewhere I might have had to consider UC. That’s where Drs. are pushing women.
Someone was kind enough to send me a link to this blog and the threads and I’m moved to respond. The “dead baby card” isn’t all it is cracked up to be:
http://www.preeclampsia.org/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=8
A full 25% of our membership gets to play the “dead baby card” each and every day.
As Director of Support for the Preeclampsia Foundation, I’m the one who gets to be on the receiving end of the phone calls from horrified husbands wondering why their wife has died or first time moms asking if it was their fault their body betrayed them, so perhaps I’m a bit biased.
I can’t argue the issue over medicalized vs non- medicalized births. Without a medicalized birth, I would be dead, and so would my child. If I had the luxury of a normal pregnancy, who knows what I would have done?
I don’t think much on the babies lost because their mothers didn’t receive medical care by choice, I wake up each morning knowing that I’m working for the babies whose families are hospitalized into penury and would move heaven and earth if they could only bring home a healthy living child.
I’ve also been working in this field that I can’t be smarmy about it- I sincerely hope all of you have healthy pregnancies and children, regardless of the choices that you make.
Thank you so much for posting, Laura.
As a PE survivor myself, I feel the same way — and I am flattered that you felt compelled to post on my site.
The PE Foundation does some excellent work and the site was an amazing resource when I was scared to death about what was happening. Thank you for doing your bit.
On the issue, I think there are lots of competing thoughts — I personally cannot understand how someone could be so reckless, knowing what I know about illnesses like PE and having spoken to so many of the women on that forum who would not be here today if not for medicalisation.
Someone was kind enough to send me a link to this blog and the threads and I’m moved to respond. The “dead baby card” isn’t all it is cracked up to be:http://www.preeclampsia.org/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=8A full 25% of our membership gets to play the “dead baby card” each and every day.As Director of Support for the Preeclampsia Foundation, I’m the one who gets to be on the receiving end of the phone calls from horrified husbands wondering why their wife has died or first time moms asking if it was their fault their body betrayed them, so perhaps I’m a bit biased.I can’t argue the issue over medicalized vs non- medicalized births. Without a medicalized birth, I would be dead, and so would my child. If I had the luxury of a normal pregnancy, who knows what I would have done?I don’t think much on the babies lost because their mothers didn’t receive medical care by choice, I wake up each morning knowing that I’m working for the babies whose families are hospitalized into penury and would move heaven and earth if they could only bring home a healthy living child.I’ve also been working in this field that I can’t be smarmy about it- I sincerely hope all of you have healthy pregnancies and children, regardless of the choices that you make.
Thank you so much for posting, Laura.As a PE survivor myself, I feel the same way — and I am flattered that you felt compelled to post on my site.The PE Foundation does some excellent work and the site was an amazing resource when I was scared to death about what was happening. Thank you for doing your bit.On the issue, I think there are lots of competing thoughts — I personally cannot understand how someone could be so reckless, knowing what I know about illnesses like PE and having spoken to so many of the women on that forum who would not be here today if not for medicalisation.
Most believe who birth at home unassisted do not believe that any medicalization of childbirth is horrible and that eating right, sleeping, and talking to the baby will ensure their pregnancies go well. Very few freebirthers think that way.
You do not have to do routine screening to pick up on preeclampsia or gestational diabetes. They usually present themselves in symptoms. Most women who birth unassisted, if at high risk for either or having symptoms, do receive the screening. Birthing unassisted does not necessarily mean you do not receive any prenatal care whatsoever. Many do receive prenatal care or do self-care. These women stay in tune with their bodies and ensure they are in good health before attempting to birth. They don’t just say “I think I’ll birth unassisted! It’ll go fine as long as I eat lots of apples to keep the doctor away.” It is far more complicated than that.
As for denying a child medical care as related to an unassisted pregnancy or childbirth, pregnancy is not a disease, nor is birthing a crisis in most cases. Therefore, refusing the medical treatment in most cases does not endanger lives. Pregnancy and childbirth is not life-threatening, and when it is, usually the condition makes itself known through symptoms or changes in vital signs that can be tracked at home. Many prenatal screens can be done at home, the exception being ultrasound which isn’t necessary without a medical reason according to many organizations.
Birthing unassisted is not risking the life of yourself or you baby. A fifth time mother has no more clue whether she will have complications than a first time mother. Medical intervention does and can save lives, but is not necessary in the normal pregnancy or birth.
I think you should do some research on unassisted child birth and women who do this, so that you can learn the truth about it. Women who birth unassisted take great care and precaution, make a huge amount of preparation, do a ton of planning and research, so that they will know if something is not right and be able to handle it. Most of them also know when & if they need to transfer to the hospital and do so if they need to.
Most believe who birth at home unassisted do not believe that any medicalization of childbirth is horrible and that eating right, sleeping, and talking to the baby will ensure their pregnancies go well. Very few freebirthers think that way.You do not have to do routine screening to pick up on preeclampsia or gestational diabetes. They usually present themselves in symptoms. Most women who birth unassisted, if at high risk for either or having symptoms, do receive the screening. Birthing unassisted does not necessarily mean you do not receive any prenatal care whatsoever. Many do receive prenatal care or do self-care. These women stay in tune with their bodies and ensure they are in good health before attempting to birth. They don’t just say “I think I’ll birth unassisted! It’ll go fine as long as I eat lots of apples to keep the doctor away.” It is far more complicated than that.As for denying a child medical care as related to an unassisted pregnancy or childbirth, pregnancy is not a disease, nor is birthing a crisis in most cases. Therefore, refusing the medical treatment in most cases does not endanger lives. Pregnancy and childbirth is not life-threatening, and when it is, usually the condition makes itself known through symptoms or changes in vital signs that can be tracked at home. Many prenatal screens can be done at home, the exception being ultrasound which isn’t necessary without a medical reason according to many organizations.Birthing unassisted is not risking the life of yourself or you baby. A fifth time mother has no more clue whether she will have complications than a first time mother. Medical intervention does and can save lives, but is not necessary in the normal pregnancy or birth.I think you should do some research on unassisted child birth and women who do this, so that you can learn the truth about it. Women who birth unassisted take great care and precaution, make a huge amount of preparation, do a ton of planning and research, so that they will know if something is not right and be able to handle it. Most of them also know when & if they need to transfer to the hospital and do so if they need to.